Tuesday, 19 January 2016

What is Ibadah? (Discussion Part-2)





“What is Ibadah?” Part-2

(Abu Sulayman’s discussion with Wahhabi/"Salafis" on IA Forum)

From Thread Page 37: 

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Quote: Die for Allah said:
This makes more sense than your previous response, but it does not fit entirely with the principal of complete independence etc, because those who follow the priests and rabbis in halal and haram obviously do not believe they are independent lords besides Allah but they give them rights which they have no authority or permission for, so going back to the example of istighatha where someone calls on others besides Allah and asks to be given from those things which only Allah azza wa jal can give the callers don't believe the called upon have independent powers or capabilities but the shirk is the fact that they give rights to ghair Allah which they have no authority or permission for, so just as the priests and rabbis have no permission to legislate halal and haram the dead saints for example have no permission to bring benefit or harm.
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Abu Sulayman Reply:

You're trying to connect two issues which have nothing to do with each other.

You say that Istighathah is Shirk because it is to ask for something that only Allah ta'ala can give, right?

Okay, let's first of all mention the two main positions among the people of Islam regarding the actions of the servants (there are more positions, but let's concentrate on those two):

- The first is that the Qudrah (power) of humans has no real effects/influence (i.e. that it has no Ta`thir), because Allah ta'ala has created all beings and their actions, and also because only Allah has real influence on the creation. This is what the Ahl al-Sunnah believes.

- The second is that the Qudrah (power) of humans has real effects, but that is because Allah ta'ala has given the person a Qudrah which is mu`athir and this Qudrah is connected to the Qudrah of Allah. This is the position of the Mu'tazilah.
It's a deviant position, because it ascribes creating actions to other than Allah ta'ala, but Takfir is not made upon them.

As for the position of the Arab polytheists regarding the actions of their [false] gods:

They believed that the Qudrah of their false gods has real influence and is not connected to the Qudrah of Allah in every moment. (And their are a number of examples for this.)

Now I want to get an explanation from you how the one who has the the belief of the people of the Sunnah regarding the actions of the servants, has committed Shirk if he says "Help me, ya Rasulallah" or "al-Shafa'ah (intercession), ya Rasulallah"?

How is it possible for you to accuse such a person of "ascribing something that is special to Allah to other than Him", while the person believes that all actions are created by Allah ta'ala alone?
This person expects help from Allah ta'ala by the Barakah (blessing) and Jah (rank) of Rasulullah - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - and just because you don't get that you accuse him of "Shirk akbar".

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Leading Shafi'i scholars* (and also from other Madhahib) have explicitly said that Tawassul, Tashaffu' and Istighathah with the Prophet - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - is allowed.
The scholars from all 4 Madhahib have even recommended to seek intercession with Rasulullah - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - unto his Lord if one visits his blessed grave.

*Were people like Imam Taqi al-din al-Subki (d. 756 AH) (click also HERE), Taqi al-Din al-Hisni (d. 829 AH), al-Samhudi (d. 911 AH), al-Qastallani (d. 923 AH), Ibn Hajar al-Haytami (d. 974 AH), Shihab al-Din and Shams al-Din al-Ramli (d. 957 AH and 1004 AH), etc. all upon "Shirk akbar"? (Click at the names to read their statements in Arabic and it's translation.)

Let's take for example a statement by Imam al-Qastallani:
وأما التوسل به- صلى الله عليه وسلم- بعد موته فى البرزخ فهو أكثر من أن يحصى أو يدرك باستقصاء وفى كتاب «مصباح الظلام فى المستغيثين بخير الأنام» للشيخ أبى عبد الله بن النعمان طرف من ذلك.
ولقد كان حصل لى داء أعيا دواؤه الأطباء، وأقمت به سنين، فاستغثت به- صلى الله عليه وسلم- ليلة الثامن والعشرين من جمادى الأولى سنة ثلاث وتسعين وثمانمائة بمكة زادها الله شرفا، ومنّ علىّ بالعود فى عافية بلا محنة، فبينا أنا نائم إذ جاء رجل معه قرطاس يكتب فيه: هذا دواء لداء أحمد بن القسطلانى من الحضرة الشريفة بعد الإذن الشريف النبوى، ثم استيقظت فلم أجد بى- والله- شيئا مما كنت أجده، وحصل الشفاء ببركة النبى- صلى الله عليه وسلم

Source: "al-Mawahib al-Ladunniyyah"

Here he says that he had an illness that the doctors treated [without success] for years. Then on a night of the year 893 AH (he mentions the exact date) he seeked help with the Prophet -sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - while he was in Makkah (i.e. Istighathah from afar). And he says that [Allah] healed him by the Barakah of Rasulullah, sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam.

This is of course pure "Shirk" according to some people here, because according to them "he's asking for healing from other than Allah".
The response is: He's from the scholars of the Ahl al-Sunnah, so we know with certainity that he believes that Allah ta'ala is the one who helps alone by creating and bringing fourth, while a creation can only help by being a mean (Sabab) and by the way of acquisition (Kasb).
This means that here Shifa` (healing) is expected from Allah ta'ala by the Barakah (blessing) of Rasulullah, sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam.

It's just a form of Tawassul as has been explained by Imam al-Subki. (And the book where he explained that (i.e. "Shifa` al-Saqam") was praised by scholars like Imam Al-Suyuti (d. 911 AH), Imam al-'Iraqi (d. 826 AH) and others.)
And it does not make a difference whether one uses the wording of Tawassul, Tashaffu' or Istighathah, because it goes all back to the same meaning (i.e. asking by the rank of Rasulullah, sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam).

And this is something that has been quite common among the Muslims, their scholars and their laymen alike:
Imam Ibn al-Salah (d. 643 AH) even used the fullfillment of one's needs if one makes Tawassul with the Master of the first and the last - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - as a proof for his prophethood:

حتى لقد انتدب بعض العلماء لاستقصائها فجمع منها ألف معجزة وعددناه مقصرا إذا فوق ذلك بأضعاف لا تحصى فإنها ليست محصورة على ما وجد منها في عصره - صلى الله عليه وسلم - بل لم تزل تتجدد بعده - صلى الله عليه وسلم - على تعاقب العصور وذلك أن كرامات الأولياء من أمته وإجابات المتوسلين به في حوائجهم ومغوثاتهم عقيب توسلهم به في شدائدهم براهين له - صلى الله عليه وسلم - قواطع ومعجزات له سواطع ولا يعدها عد ولا يحصرها حد

"In fact, one of the scholars attempted to enumerate these miracles, and counted one thousand; and even then, we consider him to have fallen short, for they are many multiples of that, and are, in fact, innumerable. They are not limited to only those that appeared at his hands during his life (peace and blessings of God be upon him); rather, they are continuously renewed after him (peace and blessings of God be upon him) with the turning of the ages; for the miracles (karamat) of the saints of his nation, and the answers to those who pray for the fulfilment of their needs by seeking intercession through him, and the succour which they find after seeking his intercession, by which they are delivered in the hour of their most dire need. . . all of these are unequivocal proofs of his greatness, and are to be counted as obvious miracles ascribed to him. As such, they have no limit!"

Source: "Fatawa Ibn al-Salah" and translation taken from here: "Traditionalism against Scholasticism: The Debate Over “Curriculum” in Damascus Between 1150-1350"

Seems like the people of Islam have been upon "Shirk akbar" since hundreds of years according to some people here.

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Die for Allah said:  The person expects help from Allah by calling upon other than Allah? That makes sense to you? I follow a deen that is simple and straight forward, the messenger of Allah salalahu alayhi wasalam taught us to call upon Allah, if you want to call upon other than Allah that is up to you, you to your way, me to mine.
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So when the people on the day of judgement ask different Prophets directly for intercession by saying "intercede for us to your Lord" ("
اشفع لنا إلى ربك") - as it is narrated in the Sahihayn - (and that is before the permission to intercede is even granted!), do they all commit "Shirk akbar" according to you?
And when they ask these Prophets do they not ultimately expect help from Allah?
Or are they "worshipping" the Prophets, peace be upon them?
And if they're committing Shirk, then why is it that Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala grants the permission to intercede to Rasulullah - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - after his Ummah have all committed "Shirk akbar" [by asking for intercession]?

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Die for Allah said: Please post all the authentic narrations where the companions of Rasulullah salalahu alayhi wasalam used to call upon other than Allah for the fulfillment of their needs, Oh wait a minute there aren't any, I wonder why that is?
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The scholars from all 4 Madhahib have even recommended to seek intercession with Rasulullah - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - unto his Lord if one visits his blessed grave.
See here to know the ruling for Tashaffu' (qoutes are only in Arabic):

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Die for Allah said:  The fact is that Allah azza wa jal has permitted the asking of Ambiya (as) for intercession on yawm al qiyamah, whereas there is absolutely no permission to call upon the dead for the fulfillment of needs, in fact there is a strict prohibition
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Abu Sulayman Reply:

I don't believe that anyone from among the creation - whether "alive" or "dead" - can fulfill any needs, because created beings and things do not have any real influence (Ta`thir). 

But they can be a mean (Sabab) for the fullfillment of one's needs.

As for your statement that it's okay for the people to ask the Prophets
- peace be upon them - for intercession on the day of judgement, then may I use your own "logic" against you: Why are they asking created beings if they want help from Allah ta'ala? Please explain this to us.

And: Seeking intercession through the Prophet - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - is allowed in the time of his life in this world, as well as after his death in the period of the Barzakh, and after the resurrection on the day of reckoning. You don't have a single Ayah, which says that this is forbidden in any of these times.

What I believe is that if one wants to perform Tawassul with the Master of the first and the last - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam -, then the best way to do that is to use similar expressions as one can find in the Ahadith and Athar:

- In the Hadith of the blind man the Prophet - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - teached the following expression:

"Oh Allah, I ask You and turn to You through Your Prophet Muhammad, the Prophet of Mercy. I turn through you (O Muhammad) to my Lord in this need of mine, that it be fulfilled. O Allah, grant him intercession for me" ("
اللهم إني أسألك وأتوجه إليك بنبيك ، محمد نبي الرحمة ، إني توجهت بك إلى ربي في حاجتي هذه لتقضى لي ، اللهم فشفعه في")
- In the Hadith of the man in need 'Uthman bin Hunayf - radhiallahu 'anhu - teaches the following expression (this is after the death of the Prophet, sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam):
"O Allāh, I ask You and I approach You through your Prophet Muhammad [​IMG], the Prophet of Mercy. O Muhammad, I approach my Lord through you that my need be fulfilled," ("
اللهم إني أسألك وأتوجه إليك بنبينا محمد صلى الله عليه وسلم نبي الرحمة ، يا محمد إني أتوجه بك إلى ربي فتقضي لي حاجتي")
- When the people suffered a drought in the time of the Khilafah of 'Umar bin al-Khattab - radhiallahu 'anhu - Bilal bin al-Harith - radhiallahu 'anhu - went to the grave of the Prophet - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - and used the following expression [as it's narrated in the Athar of Malik al-Dar]:
"O Messenger of Allāh, ask for rain for your Community, for verily they have but perished," ("
يا رسول الله , استسق الله لأمتك فإنهم قد هلكوا")
- Sayydina Adam - 'alayhis salam - used the following expression:
"O My Lord, I ask you through the right of Muhammad that you forgive me." ("
يا رب أسألك بحق محمد لما غفرت لي")
- In the narration where the Khalifah Abu Ja'far al-Mansur (d. 158 AH) asked Imam Malik (d. 179 AH) whether he should turn his face to the Qiblah to supplicate or towards Rasulullah - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - (and this is in the context of standing in front of his blessed grave and after having greeted him), so Imam Malik answered:
"How could you turn your face away from him when he is the means (wasila) of your and your father Adam’s forgiveness to Allah on the Day of Resurrection? Nay, face him and ask for his intercession (istashfi` bihi) so that Allah will grant it to you as He said: “If they had only, when they were wronging themselves, come unto thee and asked Allah’s forgiveness, and the Messenger had asked forgiveness for them, they would have found Allah indeed Oft-returning, Most Merciful (4:64)." ("
ولم تصرف وجهك عنه ، وهو وسيلتك ، ووسيلة أبيك آدم - عليه السلام - إلى الله - تعالى - يوم القيامة ؟ بل استقبله ، واستشفع به ، فيشفعه الله ، قال الله - تعالى - : ولو أنهم إذ ظلموا أنفسهم [ النساء : 64 ] الآية")
- In the narration of al-'Utbi the following expression is used:
"Peace be upon you, O Messenger of Allah! I have heard Allah saying: { If they had only, when they were unjust to themselves, come unto thee and asked Allah's forgiveness, and the Messenger had asked forgiveness for them, they would have found Allah indeed Oft-returning, Most Merciful } [4:64], so I have come to you asking forgiveness for my sin, seeking your intercession with my Lord." ("
السلام عليك يا رسول الله سمعت الله يقول ( { ولو أنهم إذ ظلموا أنفسهم جاءوك فاستغفروا الله واستغفر لهم الرسول لوجدوا الله توابا رحيما } ) وقد جئتك مستغفرا من ذنبي مستشفعا بك إلى ربي")
- etc.

What I also personally believe is that it is better not to use expressions which may make one appear as if one is expecting [real] help from other than Allah ta'ala.

As for statements like "Ya Fulan, have mercy upon me/forgive me my sins" or like "Ya Fulan, give me children/sustenance", then this is forbidden.

It should be however noted that we don't make Takfir upon such people except if they intend that the person himself can give that to them (i.e. if they have a Shirki intention/belief) and that is because the one who has entered into the religion with certainity does not leave it except with certainity, so the benefit of doubt is given to such people even if the apparent meaning of their statement is disbelief.

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Die for Allah said:
I follow a deen that is simple and straight forward, the messenger of Allah salalahu alayhi wasalam taught us to call upon Allah, if you want to call upon other than Allah that is up to you, you to your way, me to mine.
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Just look how you're presenting the view of your oppponent. Subhanallah, did I tell you worship other than Allah ta'ala?
"You to your way, me to mine" (translating it into Arabic: "Lakum dinukum wa liya Din")... aren't you brave enough to make open Takfir?
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Die for Allah said:  this whole thread has been about whether such a calling is classed as ibadah and therefor shirk or if it is of a lesser severity in terms of sin i.e absolutely haram and a means to shirk but not shirk in and of itself, they have been the 2 options as far as Im concerned throughout this discourse, but here we have Abu Sulayman confusing the matter of tawassul with that of istighatha and trying to claim that istighatha is permissible.
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Is there any obligation upon me to follow one of the two options that you mentioned? 

No.

And I'm not confusing anything here.
You should've already realized from my words that my understanding regarding what Istighathah even is differs from yours.

And I've already given you the qoutes of a number of Shafi'i scholars in support of my position:
Abu Sulayman said:
*Were people like Imam Taqi al-din al-Subki (d. 756 AH) (click also HERE), Taqi al-Din al-Hisni (d. 829 AH), al-Samhudi (d. 911 AH), al-Qastallani (d. 923 AH), Ibn Hajar al-Haytami (d. 974 AH), Shihab al-Din and Shams al-Din al-Ramli (d. 957 AH and 1004 AH), etc. all upon "Shirk akbar"? (Click at the names to read their statements in Arabic and it's translation.)

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Logic lover said:
'The new definition' deals with a 'belief-based' system only (ie shirk can only occur in a particular form of belief, which is dubbed as istiqlal/independence from Allah's rububiyya/Lordship') - a long way from the understanding of the commoners like you and me.
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Is it okay to say "al-Shafa'ah (intercession), Ya Rasulallah" or is it Shirk?

If you say that it's Shirk then this means that the absolute majority of the believers who have preceded us in faith - the scholars of them and the laymen! - have been committing this very Shirk!

Were the scholars of all 4 Madhahib ignorant what Shirk is when they even recommended doing this during the Ziyarah?

Take this qoute as an example, which is by the major Hanafi scholar al-Imam 'Abdullah bin Mahmud bin Mawdud al-Mawsili (d. 683 AH) [it's in the context of the Ziyarah], who's buried near to Imam Abu Hanifah (d. 150 AH):

وقد قال الله تعالى : ( ولو أنهم إذ ظلموا أنفسهم جاءوك فاستغفروا الله واستغفر لهم الرسول لوجدوا الله توابا رحيما ) وقد جئناك ظالمين لأنفسنا ، مستغفرين لذنوبنا ، فاشفع لنا إلى ربك ، وأسأله أن يميتنا على سنتك ، وأن يحشرنا في زمرتك ، وأن يوردنا حوضك ، وأن يسقينا كأسك غير خزايا ولا نادمين ، الشفاعة الشفاعة يا رسول الله ، يقولها ثلاثا : ( ربنا اغفر لنا ولإخواننا الذين سبقونا بالإيمان ) الآية .ويبلغه سلام من أوصاه فيقول : السلام عليك يا رسول الله من فلان بن فلان ، يستشفع بك إلى ربك فاشفع له ولجميع المسلمين

"Allah ta'ala says: { If they had only, when they were unjust to themselves, come unto thee and asked Allah's forgiveness, and the Messenger had asked forgiveness for them, they would have found Allah indeed Oft-returning, Most Merciful } [4:64].
So we've come to you, having wronged ourselves and asking [Allah] for forgiveness regarding our sins, so intercede for us to your Lord and ask Him that He lets us die upon your Sunnah, and that He gathers us [on the day of reckoning] among your group, and allows us to get to your Hawdh and drink from your bowl without disgrace or regret.
Intercession intercession, o Messenger of Allah (al-Shafa'ah al-Shafa'ah, ya Rasulallah) - he (the visitor) should say this thrice -, { “Our Lord, forgive us and those of our brothers who preceded us in faith” } [59:10] [till the end of] the Ayah.
[Then] he should deliver the greeting of those who have told him to do so by saying: 'Peace be upon you, o Messenger of Allah, from Fulan bin Fulan, he seeks intercession through you unto your Lord, so intercede for him and for all believers'."

Source: "al-Ikhtiyar li Ta'lil al-Mukhtar"

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Logic lover said:  What buffles me is the addressing of Rasulullah (saws) saying, 'O Muhammad'. Is it good adab for you and me to call on Rasulullah (saws) by name?
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I also would address the Prophet - sallalahu 'alayhi wa sallam - as Rasulullah and not just as Muhammad.
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Logic lover said:  If one is not expecting help from other than Allah - why would one call on other than Allah? It does not make sense.
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If that's the case don't go to the doctor and don't take medicine if you get ill. Why are you taking medicine while Shifa` (healing) comes from Allah ta'ala alone? Isn't the medicine a dead thing according to both of us?
Or is it that you believe that the medicine causes real effects? If you believe that it intrinsically causes effects, then this Shirk akbar and if you believe that Allah ta'ala has put some sort of power into it so that it causes real effects it's still a deviant belief (but Takfir is not made in the second case).
(The second case is what most "Salafi" minded people believe.)

If I take medicine, then it's because it's a mean (Sabab) to get healed by Allah ta'ala and NOT because it has any real effects.

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Die for Allah said:
Sorry akhi, I thought I stated that my understanding of istighatha is to call directly upon other than Allah and ask for some need to be fulfilled such as what you have stated above i.e rizq,forgiveness, etc. You are now agreeing that it is forbidden?
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I believe in adressing the Prophet - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - as one adresses a messenger of Allah (and he is the best of Messengers and Prophets!).

As for asking for Rizq or the the forgiving of sins, then it's not allowed to ask this no matter whether it's during his lifetime or after that, because as Muslims we're asking him - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - as the Messenger of Allah and NOT as our Creator and Sustainer.

I recommend you to read the following for a better understanding:

Imam Shams al-Din al-Jazari (d. 711 AH) refuting Ibn Taymiyyah (d. 728 AH) on seeking aid with the Prophet, sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam

Imam Najm al-Din al-Tufi al-Hanbali (d. 716 AH) mentioned what Imam al-Jazari said and added some comments to it:

"'So the one of his own caste seeked assistance against the one who was of his enemies'
[quoting the verse from chapter al-Qasas, aya 15 of the Qur'an];

The Shaykh Shams ud-Deen alJazari, the commentator of the Minhaj in Usul alFiqh (the science of foundation of Legal Jurisprudence) used it [i.e. this verse] as evidence against Shaykh Taqi udDeen Ibn Taymiyyah and his reported statement "The assistance of the Messenger of Allah, May Allah send his peace and blessings upon him, is not sought as seeking assistance of Allah, the Exalted and Mighty, is from His specific characteristics and rights so it is not for other than Him just like (acts of) worship.' "

The aforementioned refutation is as follows:
He said, "It is necessary that one considers the true nature of seeking assistance.
What is it and what is meant by seeking help and calling for help?

We find this man from the tribe of Israel sought the assistance of Musa [may the peace and blessings be upon him and the Seal of Prophets], and sought and called for his help as is explicitly stated in the text of this verse. This is the seeking assistance of a created being from another created being and Musa affirmed the man from the tribe of Israel in it and Allah, the exalted and Mighty affirmed Musa doing so. Furthermore Muhammad, May Allah send His peace and blessing upon him, did not find fault in it when these verses were revealed. In other words, this was affirmation from Allah, the Exalted and Mighty, and His Messenger for the seeking assistance of one created being from another created being and as seeking the assistance of Musa is permissible then it even more so of Muhammad as he is by consensus superior.

He also uses as evidence the narration of Hajar, the mother of Ismail, when she sought water for her son and did not find it. She heard a sound at the bottom of the valley and said, "[Oh whoever you may be,] you have made me hear your voice, [help us] if you can offer any help." This statement conveys the meaning of her seeking the assistance of (the angel) Jibreel and the Prophet, May God send his peace and blessings upon him, affirmed her in this and did not disapprove of her.

Certainty in the oneness of God is one of the conditions of Islam. So when we find a Muslim seeking the assistance of a created being we know, without doubt, that he is not associating that created being with God, the Exalted and Mighty. Such an action is only his seeking help or turning to Allah by the blessing of that created being. People at the station of reckoning (on the Day of Judgement) will call for the help of the prophets seeking their intercession in bringing ease for themselves, hence it is permissable to call upon the prophets in other situations.

Shaykh Abu Abdillah anNu'maan has written a book that he titled, "The lamp in darkness of those seeking assistance by the best of mankind." This book has become famous and the people of his time have agreed upon this book in consensus. The consensus of the people of every age is considered a proof such that the one who disapproves is considered to be acting against the consensus.

If it is said that the aforementioned verse is regarding the story of Musa and the man from the tribe of Israel and it is not relevant to the point in contention for two main objections.

The first being that Musa was alive at that time and we only decline to accept the seeking assistance of a dead being.

The second is that the companion of Musa sought his assistance in a matter that Musa was able to undertake and that was his help with an opponent and that is a natural matter. Yet we only contend with the seeking assistance of a created being in matters that are specific to God, the Exalted and Majestic, such as divine mercy, forgiveness, sustenance, giving life and so on. So one must not say, "Oh Muhammad forgive me or have mercy upon me or sustain me or answer me (and in another manuscript of the same text 'give me life' was mentioned) or give me money and a child" as all of that is associating a partner to God by consensus.

A response to the first objection is that if seeking of assistance of the living is allowed then so should it be allowed for the dead, if not even more so, as he they are closer than the living to God, the Exalted and Mighty for many reasons.

The first
of which is that he is in the abode of Generosity and Recompense and the living is in the abode of legal responsibility.

The second is that the dead person, unlike the living, has broken free from the natural world that cuts of from reaching the other world.

The third reason is that the martyrs in their lives are veiled and after their death are alive with their Lord being sustained (alluding to Surah 2 V 154).

In response to the second objection
it can be said that what you have mentioned is an agreed upon matter known to the youngest of Muslim let alone the eldest, i.e. that with regards to Divine Omnipotence another created being is not to be sought under any circumstance and that neither should be attributed to it. We have seen rabbles of people and their common-folk and the furthest of them from knowledge and divine certainty (gnosis) seeking refuge at the room of the Prophet (i.e. his resting place), may God send his peace and blessings upon him, and they do not go beyond asking for intercession and his being a medium, "Oh Prophet, intercede on behalf of us. Oh God, by the blessing of your Prophet, forgive us." Hence such discussion about the matter becomes presumptuous and no one from amongst the Muslims is in need of it. If it is inevitable that by announcing this ruling it is feared that someone may fall into it then putting it another way do not delude yourself in finding fault in the Prophet, May God's peace and blessings be upon him, or defect in his rank such as saying that which God has taken upon himself by Divine ability should not be sought from a created being at all and do not oppose the Prophet by stripping seeking assistance from Him unrestrictedly or restrictedly and do not mention him except by sending peace and blessings upon him and narrating from from and so forth.

This is that which concerns this matter and I have relayed it in a question and answer format with additional points from myself."

Source: "al-Isharat al-Ilahiyyah ila al-Mabahith al-Usuliyyah" 3/89-93 and translation taken from here: Najm Al-Din Al-Tufi Al-Hanbali quotes a refutation of his teacher regarding Ibn Taymiyya on Istighatha - Fiqh & Usūl al-Fiqh - Marifah Forums

I recommend reading the above qoute as it contains a good explanation of this issue.

(Note: I omitted the Arabic. You can read the complete comment with the Arabic qoute HERE.)

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Logic lover said:
They will call upon entities which they will see/hear and can hear the response. This is different from calling upon the dead.
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Abu Sulayman Reply:

Sorry bro, but are we atheists or Muslims?

- The Qur`an tells us not to regard those who have been killed in the way of Allah as dead and says that they're alive while we do not perceive.
The Prophets are greater in rank than the martyrs, so they're even more deserving of this description and honour and their life is even greater.
There are many authentic proofs that Prophets are alive in their graves.
Just look at the incidents of al-Isra` wal Mi'raj and how Rasulullah - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - met different Prophets and Messengers (who had already died a long time ago) and among them Musa - 'alayhis salam - and how he spoke to him at different places.

- The rank of Rasulullah - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - and his blessing does not go away just because he died. He's the best of creation at all times.

- The Prophet - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - gets informed regarding the state of his Ummah and he supplicates for all of us.

- If one goes to visit him and greets him, he hears that without any doubt.

- The soul of the believer gets stronger when it leaves the body and there are proofs for this. This has been explicitly mentioned by scholars like Imam Fakhr al-Din al-Razi (d. 606 AH), Ibn Qayyim (d. 751 AH) and others.

- Death is just a transition from one kind of existance to another. It's not like one does not exist anymore.


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Thread Page:  38-39: Here
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Logic lover said:
People spoke and sought Krishna's help when he was alive. Why should they be considered idol worshipers now for calling on him?
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Abu Sulayman Reply:

Ascribing lordship/divinity to Krishna (for example by believing that he's an incarnation of some sort of supreme being) is Shirk at all times.

But are you seriously trying to compare something like Tashaffu' with the Prophet - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam -, which is allowed according to the Jumhur of the scholars, to worshipping Krishna? 

So the scholars of Islam were upon Shirk akbar?

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Die for Allah said:
It cannot be understood from any of those narrations that help is being sought from other than Allah, asking Allah azz wa jal to accept ones dua due to the status of the messenger of Allah salalahu alayhi wasalam is a form of tawassul, it is not the istighatha which involves calling upon other than Allah and asking them to fulfill needs.
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 Abu Sulayman reply:

Okay great.
So you agree with this statement (Bilal bin al-Harith - radhiallahu 'anhu - asked this AFTER the death of the Prophet, sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam)?:
"O Messenger of Allāh, ask for rain for your Community, for verily they have but perished," ("
يا رسول الله , استسق الله لأمتك فإنهم قد هلكوا")

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Thread Page,38:
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Sibawayh alFarsi said:
Wallahi this guy doesn't know what he is talking about, but then what do you expect from a Zindiq who hunts for every shudhoodh including the Prophet knowing what is in our HEART (based on a Maliki Shaykh's Zindiq statement) when we stand in front of his grave?!
Of course they ascribed shurakaa to Allaah by worshipping them they automatically did that this is because ibadaah is the haqq of Allaah alone. The talbiyyah IS a proof that they did NOT believed in istiqlaal. The quote of Imam Al-Qurtubi doesn't support you, where does he say that they did so with the belief of istiqlal? In fact, they did so WASEELATAN so they can be their shufa'a. As Imam Al-Baghawi explains in his tafsir.
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Abu Sulayman Reply:
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Sibawayh alFarsi said:
Wallahi this guy doesn't know what he is talking about, but then what do you expect from a Zindiq who hunts for every shudhoodh including the Prophet knowing what is in our HEART (based on a Maliki Shaykh's Zindiq statement) when we stand in front of his grave?!
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As an information for the readers: I've once qouted Imam Ibn al-Hajj al-'Abdari al-Maliki (d. 737 AH) regarding Tawassul and Istighathah with the Prophet - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - and it seems that this is enough for the above person to make Takfir upon me. (Read this here: "Tawassul and Istighatha by Imām Ibn al-Hājj al-`Abdarī")

The ironic thing is that he does not dare to make Takfir upon Imam Ibn Hajar al-'Asqalani (d. 852 AH) even though he explicitly praised the book "al-Madkhal" (from which I had qouted) in his "al-Durar al-Kaminah".

And by the way: I did not say that the Prophet - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - knows all of our thoughts, but rather that he's informed regarding the deeds of those who sincerely believe in that which he was sent with and that he supplicates for them (and there are narrations regarding this issue).

Sa'id bin al-Musayyib (d. 93/94 AH), who is from among the Kibar al-Tabi'in, even said that the Prophet - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - knows them (i.e. the members of his Ummah) by their names and appearances.

So if someone visits the blessed grave of our Prophet - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam -, but does not ask him to supplicate for him with his tongue, then the Prophet - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - will still supplicate for him, because he - 'alayhi salatu was salam - is aware of one's needs and one's state and is more merciful to one than oneself. Many scholars (like for example Imam al-Mawardi (d. 448 AH) would also mention the following Hadith in the context of the Ziyarah:
"Whoever visits my grave, then my intercession will surely be granted to him." ("
من زار قبري وجبت له شفاعتي")
And if you've a problem with me saying that he - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - is merciful, then know that Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala has described him as bing kind (Ra`uf) and merciful (Rahim) towards the believers and know that there will come a day when everyone will only think about himself, but Rasulullah will say "Ummati, Ummati". So may the peace and blessings of Allah be upon him!

And how beautiful is the poem of one scholars of Lughah and Adab (Ibn al-Sayyid al-Batalyawsi (d. 521 AH)) that Imam Ibn al-Hajj qouted (the Arabic can be found here: "al-Madkhal"):

"Unto you I flee from my slips and sins,
and when I meet Allāh you are the one sufficient for me

Visiting your grave that is visited by foot
is my longing and desire if my Lord wills

So if visitation of him is prevented by my body,
then I am not prevented from visiting him with my heart

To you oh Messenger of Allāh I send, from myself,
a salutation of a believer and lover.
"

- end of the qoute -

What I really don't understand is why you make Takfir upon Ibn al-Hajj, while [your] Ibn Taymiyyah (d. 728 AH) even explicitly said that the devils know what is in heart of humans (see: "Majmu' al-Fatawa" 5/508).

But we don't hear any Takfir against Ibn Taymiyyah from you?
Do you realize that the consequence of this would be that you regard the Shayatin as your lord? (Note: I'm not saying that this is what you believe, but only that it would be the consequence of your contradictory behaviour.)
 --

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Sibawayh alFarsi said:  The quote of Imam Al-Qurtubi doesn't support you, where does he say that they did so with the belief of istiqlal? In fact, they did so WASEELATAN so they can be their shufa'a.
As Imam Al-Baghawi explains in his tafsir.
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Abu Sulayman Reply:

Please don't even try to mention the names of the above scholars. You know nothing about them, nor do you have any understanding of their words! If they would live in our time, you would either make Tabdi' or Takfir upon them!

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Abu Moussa said:
Salam alaikum,
i would like to add one point: If i remember correctly and your opinion has not changed, then some of you are of the view, that there is al-'udhr bil-jahl in shirk. If we add to that your definition of shirk, that shirk occurs with the belief, that this object has some attributes of rububiyyah, then i ask myself, who can be a mushrik at all? Then anyone, who believes, that 'Ali can give rizq independently, would be a muslim, if he is ignorantly? If anyone would believe, that 'Ali answers the prayers independently, would be a muslim, if he is ignorant?
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Abu Sulayman Reply:

Wa 'alaykum al-Salam,

al-'Udhr bil Jahl [wal Ta`wil] (the excuse of ignorance [and [mis]interpretation]) regarding the Ahl al-Qiblah only applies regarding issues which are outside that which is known as the necessary knowledge regarding the religion (Ma'lum min al-Din bil Dharurah).

Believing that Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala is One without any partners, and that He has no match/peer/equal/someone that is similar to Him, and that everything is dependent on Him in every moment while He's completely free of need, etc. ... all of that is from the necessary knowledge regarding the religion, which is known to everyone.

Based upon this: A person who is like the one in your examples is outside the fold of Islam and from the people of Shirk.

(Note: As for people who are not Muslims: If the religion has not reached them or not in it's correct form, then there is the possibilty that they'll enter paradise even if they're not regarded as Muslims in this world. )

I've also a question: Why is that some people are searching so much for "Shirk akbar" among this Ummah (as if this Ummah is not the Ummah of Tawhid!), while forgetting the real Shirk that the polytheists are upon?

And what about the real Kufr that the atheists are upon?


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Thread page 39:
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EBTEAX said:

Ibn Taymiyyah could also reveal one’s thoughts!
Ibn Qayyim says in Madarij al-Salekin ,Volume 2, page 490:
"On more than one occasion, he told me (Ibn Qayyim) about internal things regarding me from the things that I wanted to do but my tongue didn’t mention them."
Umar bin Ali bin Musa al-Bazar says in Al-Alaam al-Alya, page 57:
During the days when I was in his company, whenever he began to discuss an issue, and a question came to my mind, before I raised it, he (IT) would answer it.
The Lofty Virtues of Ibn Taymiyyah
Quote: “The pious Sheikh Ahmad al-Herimi told me that he traveled to Damascus and he said: ‘When I arrived, I didn’t have money to use and there wasn’t anyone there whom I knew. So I kept walking hesitantly through the streets. Then suddenly a Sheikh came towards me in a speedy manner. He smiled to me and placed a bag of money in my hand and said: ‘From now on, use it, and do not worry about anything, Allah will not let you.’ Then he went as if he had only came for me. Then I prayed for him and felt happy. Then I asked about the Sheikh with whom I had met on my way. They replied: ‘You don’t know him?’ He is Ibn Taimiyah.”
Ibn Abdulhadi al-Maqdisi says: “Such as this wise man he could cite the commandments that came down from the heavens and earth.”
"To him, Ibn Taymiyyah knew all the divine commandments from Adam (as) to Muhammad (S). But, we think that is unseen knowledge!" [Al-Uqood al-Duria, page 326]

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ahsiddique said:

So knowledge of what is in the hearts of men is fitting for Iblis and for Ibn Taymiyya, but not for the Best of Creation (salallahu alayhi wa sallam)? And asserting such knowledge for him is manifest shirk but not for these lease beings?
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 (Edited by ADHM)